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timing belt vs. timing chain question

Discussion in '1st Gen. Tacomas (1995-2004)' started by Jolly Onion, Aug 30, 2016.

  1. Aug 30, 2016 at 7:58 PM
    #1
    Jolly Onion

    Jolly Onion [OP] Cheap is not Good & Good is not Cheap

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    I read that 2004 Tacos have timing belt and 2005 and on a chain.

    I am guessing that the belt is smoother but needs replacement around 70-80K miles, whereas the chain lasts longer (how long I do not know), but going to guess at least double the belt.

    Q : Are harmonics (idle quality, etc.) really noticeable between the belt driven models vs. chain models?

    I will be posting followup questions as at close to 80K, I am ready to change the belt (and everything else) that comes in the below kit, which seems to use OEM parts. Has anyone used this kit and your opinion please.

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/180729034728

    So many moving parts with the belt driven engines, I guess that is a why Toyota went to a chain (simpler).

    Thanks

    Alex

    PS: In my drag racing days only chains and gear drives were available, then the belt driven systems (Jesel) were introduced, but they cost way more than chains.
     
  2. Aug 30, 2016 at 9:26 PM
    #2
    2004TacomaSR5

    2004TacomaSR5 Nemesis Prime

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    Tacoma is stock and staying that way, Pickup is TBA as of now.
    Oh boy, where to begin? There's a lot on this topic but the short and skinny is with this particular Toyota engine, belts are easier and cheaper to replace. If it breaks, it won't cause cataclysmic damage to the engine since it's a non-interface design, but there is a potential for a broken belt to whip around and bust up the plastic shroud, and take out a few idlers with it if it's revved up high during the breakage. A timing chain setup on the Tacoma 4 bangers (All generation Tacoma's) or 4.0 V6's on 2nd gens are stronger, yes, but if they somehow DO manage to break, you have the promise for disaster. Although a TC is supposed to be good for the life of the engine; if you keep it stock, adding horsepower increases stress on them significantly depending on what you do. Replacing a TC requires you to disassemble a good portion of the engine, and that equals a lot more man hours in the job and the likelihood of you being stuck without a truck for awhile depending how fast you, your mechanic/dealership can get parts.
    A TB job on the other hand if you have all the right parts, hands on experience or a good mechanic can be done in 4-6 hours most cases. There's a couple write ups and good video tutorials on YouTube that go further into detail on it. I had mine professionally done a little over a month ago. Combined cost was about $500 with the parts I ordered and the labor going into it. I felt more comfortable with it this way, the job was a bit over my head skill-wise, and I don't have a very large selection of tools at the moment, either. But if you have the space, and tools available to you, it is much less intimidating to dive into.
     
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  3. Aug 31, 2016 at 7:41 PM
    #3
    Jolly Onion

    Jolly Onion [OP] Cheap is not Good & Good is not Cheap

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    Thanks for the reply Jon. This is detailed info that I was looking for.

    I like the fact that the engine is non-interface design. That is great engineering by itself. From your reply, I now prefer the belt drive. Replace it (and other parts) and be done with it for 70-80K miles. I have seen broken chains in drag racing cars, not a pretty site with pistons hitting valves, and rods coming out of oil pans.

    I did search the videos and write ups. They are good but not detailed enough for me to take on. If I could find a detailed write up with pictures that was step by step with pictures, I would attempt to do it myself. But just like you, I do not feel comfortable doing it myself, worried about missing the TDC, belt being off by 1 notch, the proper tools can cost over $200. So I will buy the kit, find a real pro, take off everything and expose the timing belt/water pump, let him change it all, then button it up, change belts, anti freeze etc. I also like to know if the bolts need anti seize, loctite, oil or nothing before being torqued down. I can not find that info either.

    The challenge is to find the right person to replace it al properly. Not sure about Montana, but here in NY, every hack is into construction, auto repair etc. So I have to find someone competent who has done it many times before.

    Re the link for the kit, is that a quality kit?, or is there anything else I should look at.

    Also is it a must to change the cam/crank seal? how many miles are they good for? or might as well if one has it open (it does need a speacil tool to do it right).

    FYI, the labor in NY is $450-$600 private and $1600 at the dealer (labor and parts).

    Thanks

    Alex
     
  4. Sep 1, 2016 at 11:19 AM
    #4
    Jolly Onion

    Jolly Onion [OP] Cheap is not Good & Good is not Cheap

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  5. Sep 1, 2016 at 11:31 AM
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    OneWheelPeel

    OneWheelPeel Well-Known Member

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  6. Sep 1, 2016 at 11:38 AM
    #6
    cruxofthebisquit

    cruxofthebisquit Well-Known Member

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    OME and worth every penny.
    Looks like a good one.

    Either one depending on needs.
     
  7. Sep 1, 2016 at 11:57 AM
    #7
    Jolly Onion

    Jolly Onion [OP] Cheap is not Good & Good is not Cheap

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  8. Sep 1, 2016 at 11:59 AM
    #8
    cruxofthebisquit

    cruxofthebisquit Well-Known Member

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    OME and worth every penny.
    The toughest part of doing yourself is getting fan off.


    It's really just an afternoon piddling around.

    Really if your going to start it.....you can finish it.

    The board here can help.

    The belt is marked, it's not hard to get right.


    I've done several and I'm an idiot.
     
  9. Sep 1, 2016 at 12:27 PM
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    TooMuchToDo

    TooMuchToDo Well-Known Member

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    ...we'll get there.
  10. Sep 1, 2016 at 12:42 PM
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    BaconPower

    BaconPower Well-Known Member

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    The Toyota pickup 4 banger 22RE engine's timing chain guides would fail at around 110K miles and would require a new timing chain. Definitely not lasting the life of the engine on the 22RE. May be different on new ones.
     
  11. Sep 1, 2016 at 1:09 PM
    #11
    Jolly Onion

    Jolly Onion [OP] Cheap is not Good & Good is not Cheap

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    Thanks for the info.

    Can you or someone post the torque specs for all the nuts and bolts and what to use when fastening them (anti seize, loctite, oil or nothing). This will help me when hiring someone to put it together. I will take everything off and button it up after the belt is replaced.

    Thanks

    Alex
     
  12. Sep 1, 2016 at 1:43 PM
    #12
    TooMuchToDo

    TooMuchToDo Well-Known Member

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    ...we'll get there.
    Hey Alex, are you doing the basic job or replacing all of the pulleys too? nothing is listed as needing loctite or antiseize. ...kind of up to you if you'd like to go above and beyond. torqued to spec should be ok.

    belt tensioner 20ftlbs
    timing belt cover 80 in lbs
    crankshaft pulley 217ftlbs (eat your wheaties)
    fan bracket 80in lbs
    alternator 71in lbs
    ac compressor bracket 35ftlbs
    fan coupling 48inlbs
    ac compressor 18ftlbs
    power steering pump 31ftlbs

    merry christmas
     
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  13. Sep 1, 2016 at 2:08 PM
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    cruxofthebisquit

    cruxofthebisquit Well-Known Member

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    Your already doing the hardest part.
     
  14. Sep 1, 2016 at 2:17 PM
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    TooMuchToDo

    TooMuchToDo Well-Known Member

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    ...we'll get there.
    oh, something that probably won't come with any set: the drive shaft pulley bolt. it is listed as a single-use item in the FSM.

    i have heard of people reusing it. I have yet to decide if i will replace or not. Since i'd rather not have it fail, i will likely use a new one.
     
  15. Sep 1, 2016 at 2:41 PM
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    cruxofthebisquit

    cruxofthebisquit Well-Known Member

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    I've never replaced one.....but then.....I've never torqued anything up there either.

    Tighten 'til it strips, then back out a 1/4.

    Oh, and I was thinking our fans had a big honking nut in the middle...nah. Ours are easy compared to Chevy.

    As far as special tools...an impact takes the balancer bolt out easily enough....Anybody remember Old Honda's? God what did they put on those things?
     
  16. Sep 1, 2016 at 2:51 PM
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    Sterdog

    Sterdog Offline

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    @Jolly Onion

    The 1GR on the 2005 is a non interference engine. The first reply of this post is slanted by a long shot. If a timing chain fails on the 1GR it will cause no more damage than a belt failing on the 5VZ (2004 engine). Read through this post about the 1GR being a non interference design:

    https://www.tacomaworld.com/threads/interference-or-non-interference.39539/

    In general timing chains are lifetime parts and will let you know something is wrong long before they fail. They tend to eat the guides before failing which gives them some slack and tons of noise. For that reason alone most people prefer a timing chain because they are, to some extent, maintenance free.

    Timing belts are a consumable item that must be replaced. When they are replaced you must replace other things too. That leads to a significant cost without the labour even included.

    There was a time when a belt was better than a chain but tighter manufacturing and metallurgical tolerances have made chains better than belts. Why do you think most manufacturers got away from making timing belt engines in the last 20 years? Timing chains are now more reliable with a lower repair rate so that's the direction the manufacturers have gone too.

    At super high rpms like on a dragster a belt is preferable because of the super high rpms. Remember a belt weighs less than a chain so at those super high rpms there is a lot more momentum on a chain than a belt. However the Tacoma is not a high RPM engine so it doesn't matter.

    The only big advantage of a timing belt in this case is that they are generally quicker to replace because they have to be replaced every ~150k. Given though that your 1GR will likely fail before the chain does who cares.
     
  17. Sep 1, 2016 at 7:54 PM
    #17
    Jolly Onion

    Jolly Onion [OP] Cheap is not Good & Good is not Cheap

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    This is what I was looking for. THANKS VERY MUCH. In my spreadsheet it goes.

    I am very finicky with minor details. There is a reason the engineers spec torque. I have seen many "it is tight enough" either come loose or stripped (not on my cars) but friends and relatives who try to save a few dollars and go to the local gas station.

    I will use light Loctite just to be on the safe side.

    I plan to use everything in the kit. If you are referring to the power steering, AC & alternator pulleys, I am not changing them, just the belts.

    Crankshaft pulley will be coming off as it did in my Chevelle, WD40 let it sit for a day and then, cranking the engine just a hair to break it loose. Getting a new crank bolt and antiseize around the hub so it comes off easy next time.

    Will decide if I am going to tackle it myself (if I can borrow or rent the tools to make this job easy), or hire a Toyota mechanic who has done this many times. Just want to get it done right and do it once.

    Thanks for the specs again.
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2016
  18. Sep 1, 2016 at 8:05 PM
    #18
    Jolly Onion

    Jolly Onion [OP] Cheap is not Good & Good is not Cheap

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    If you are referring to part # 9011916006, yes it needs to be changes as it is a stretch bolt. Not as critical as not using the old connecting rod nuts and bolts in a rebuilt, but at $5 for a new one, I will replace it too.
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2016
    TooMuchToDo likes this.
  19. Sep 1, 2016 at 8:12 PM
    #19
    Jolly Onion

    Jolly Onion [OP] Cheap is not Good & Good is not Cheap

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    Great info, thank you. At the RPM range that we operate, a chain makes more sense OVERALL.

    Top Fuel, Funny cars and Pro stocks use a belt for reasons indicated by you.

    Great post
     
  20. Sep 1, 2016 at 8:57 PM
    #20
    Sterdog

    Sterdog Offline

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    No problem. There isn't anything wrong with a timing belt though and your 5VZ will last a long long time if you change the parts listed above at the scheduled intervals. Good luck :).
     

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