Towing in 3.5L vs 4.0L

2nd gear is half of the rpms of 1st gear. Get to at least 2500rpms before shifting

 

Thanks!

 

I have a 17 4runner and I think it's got a lot more low end. I haven't been driving it much and when I finally take it out I'm always surprised. The 2nd gentgen 4.0 is not the same as the 4runner 4.0 though.

 

Can someone that has OVTune comment how much of a difference the tune made when towing. I have a 2019 OR 4x4 and tow a side by side total weight under 3K with the trailer, when I am pulling through the hills it feels like I am dragging the trailer w/o wheels! I had a gen 2 with a 4.0 and it was not great pulling the same combo but better than the gen 3. Anyone with OVTune and tows share your results.

Thanks

 

What kind of hills we talking? I pull this exact same setup through the Appalachian mountains and foothills and have 0 problem in S5 and ECT at 65-70 mph in my stock tuned truck. Seriously no issues. MPG take a beating, but it is what it is.

 

4runner makes like 12 more torques at 200 RPM less. It's not a lot more.

 

I wonder if it is the throttle. There is a very different feel between the two.

 

Throttle mapping would be my guess as well. It's purposely softer on the 3rd gen for economy sake. ECT fixes that though.

 

Sarcasm is my middle name.

 

8 pages of posts later, there have really only been a couple of relevant ones. I asked for only standard shift comparisons by people who have actually towed with both (and while unsaid, I prefer stock trucks). Lots of talk of S mode and ECT and all sorts of gear ratios that simply don't apply to us MT truck drivers. And no, this was not a discussion on whether I should have purchased an auto instead of a MT.

I just test drove a 4.0L MT last week to freshen my memory of my truck and I think it has already been said, but I'll summarize my thoughts and we can rekindle this cock fight.

The 4.0L engine generally ran with less "quirks" when it came to throttle response, cold starts, chugging, pings, misses, etc, at the cost of efficiency. I have found this is pretty common when comparing older multiport fuel injected engines with new DI engines. The new DI generation of engines rolled out the last 10 years or so are all more efficient but less willing to rev freely (revs are sluggish up and hang high between shifts, etc). This is for grocery getters and trucks. Sports cars are a different story because they want your engine to do what your throttle pedal is doing obviously...

The gearing on the 4.0L MT trucks was a lot better for commuting because 1,2,3, and 4 were laid out with absolutely perfect ratios, for commuting/general stop and go, not hauling, etc. It seems the feel of 5 and 6 are more closely aligned with the 3rd gen so the difference becomes less noticeable. However, I notice myself downshifting a lot more from 6 to 5 in my new truck than my 4.0L, so there is something to be said for the combination of ever so slightly lower torque curve, gear ratios (combination of axles and transmission), and slightly lower weight truck. The 2nd gens feel easier to get moving and keep moving.

That being said, the 3rd gen very obviously had efficiency as the number one CTQ in the drivetrain design. It gets WAY better mileage under what Toyota probably figures to be "normal operating" which we would call lazy commuting. That efficiency comes at the cost of a 1-2 gear jump that's a country mile in ratios. It simply doesn't make sense. The 3.5L engine can't run below 1500rpm whatsoever so you have to rev 1st to 3500+ to make the jump to 2nd gear without holding up traffic like a 1960 Fiat 500 in rush hour Manhattan... It also has a painful delay in throttle response (I know an OV tune can "fix" this) which manifests itself as a lack of power. In reality, the power is there, it just takes more time to come up than a 1980's turbo car, except even when it does come on, it is far from riveting... It just feels lackluster. And because the tuning is geared for efficiency as much as the gear ratios are, the engine doesn't really "want" to rev, but it is certainly a lot smoother at higher RPM's once it is up there. The 4.0L sounds like it is coming apart at 4000rpm, whereas the 3.5L is just hitting its stride.

Passing power, and 5th and 6th gear type stuff seem to be basically the same once you add all of the variables up. They basically pull about the same from say.... 40mph to 80mph or so. With some weight behind it, they are both going to prefer to be in 4th gear, maybe even 3rd in a 3.5L truck, the fuel economy goes out the window in both trucks anyway, so who cares, and the 4.0L sounds like it's digging deep while the 3.5L sings along at 4500rpm or more...

It is completely a game of preference. Personally, I very much prefer the immediate response of the the power delivery in the older truck and I very much prefer the gear ratios of the older trucks. Unfortunately I don't think that equates to a "more powerful truck" when it comes to towing a trailer of 2000lbs +. It does however make for two trucks that drive completely different and get wildly different fuel economy under unladen conditions.

When it comes down to it, in another month or so, even though I prefer the driving dynamic of the older trucks, I'm going to look for a 3rd gen double cab short bed truck to replace my existing 3rd gen access cab long bed, rather than stepping back into a 2nd gen truck. I like the newness of the 3rd gen, the interior is about a million times better, and it looks like the towing power simply goes out the window in the argument. Also, my wife likes the 3rd gen more, so that should tip the scales even more

Thank you for all of your thoughts guys!

 

Keep the revs up and it will be fine, gas mileage sucks though.

 

Towed with both, many many times. I live in Washington state and there are hills and mountains everywhere. Bottom line.. they’re two diff motors and trannys. The powerband is different and the new one has another gear. All it takes is getting used to where your power is on the new one. There’s no right or wrong. Some people mind it and some dont. All personal preference.

Also, max tow rating on the 3rd gen is what.. 6300 Lbs or so? Doesn’t mean you should. I tow, very often, 3500lbs, and I can go up any of the passes at 70 but she’s at 5,000 Rpms. If you want to tow 6k lbs regularly, I would look elsewhere... like a tundra.

One last thing, the double cab long bed tows wayyy better then the short bed. I’ve towed with each one dozens of times, and that extra 1 foot makes a huge difference in feeling planted, less walk, doesn’t squat neeeearly as much, etc. Some people think the extra length Makes it hard to park in parking lots and parking garages... they’re idiots. It’s just as easy. These have great turning radius.

 

To be honest about all these posts involving towing with an auto transmission, i can't recall in your initial post you stating you were asking about or had a manual transmission.

 

It's in there. I said I only drive MT vehicles. And I also never said I planned to tow 6000lbs regularly which seems to have been taken and run with. To prove a point I said I TRIED to and it simply wouldn't go. I have since gone back and asked my father and he reminded me that we didn't try his trailer, it was our friends who has a Jayco expandable which weighs only 4500lbs, so about the same as my loaded car hauler and gear. My truck must be a runt or something because I'm not lying. I had it to the floor, WOT in 3rd, then I shifted from 3rd to 4th and it just got stuck at 54mph for 1/2 mile of WOT, level ground, no head wind. I can take a video to prove it.

Anyway the point is now clear. The 2nd gen doesn't really tug trailers any better than the 3rd gen, and my truck does fine with my Lotus on the the car hauler and a load of tools, gas, and tires, so that's good enough for me. I thought it'd be nice to use my own truck if we wanted to borrow a camper for a weekend instead of using dad's 2500HD Chevy. No worries, we have his big truck for big truck things and my truck for basically everything else.

Also, I love people suggesting I simply get a Tundra or a long box. Gee, I never thought of that!... They can buy me a bigger garage to go with it since neither will fit... I had to jimmy rig my garage door opener to fit the height of my Tacoma and I have about 3 inches in front and in back lengthwise on my existing truck. Alternatively, they can come clean the feet of snow off of it for my wife before she goes to work because it won't fit in my garage. It's easy to make suggestions, isn't it?

 

Should one avoid towing with ECT on? is it worse for your transmission?

 

Not sure about it actually being worse to the transmission, but it does cause the transmission to hunt more when i towed initially with it off.

 

ECT is literally meant for towing.

 

Something does smell weird here. I am curious if you had the ECU TSB done? 2017s came with 04B12. TSB-0058-18 or TSB-0125-18 (exact same FW for 04B13) gives a small power bump. The new TSB-0043-20 (04B14) feels even better. About as good as the OV Tune that was released at the end of 2018.

I have not towed a heavy load with mine, but I can certainly say that I don't see it having the issue that you are talking about.


After the TSB is installed, you want to have the DTCs and Learned Values reset with a 5min idle afterward. The first drive will be a bit wonky, but 20mi in, it will feel good and things will continue to improve / settle over the next 200mi or so. The ECU will adapt to your driving. Tuned, TSB, or Stock, some folks will report the ECU adapting unfavorably 1,000mi or more in. That seems to be one of the great variances with the Tacos. Very un-Toyota-like.

If you don't feel like hopping on the OVT train, then you should at least get the best stock tune. If you're feeling DIY-ish:
https://www.tacomaworld.com/threads/software-update-for-the-manual.562550/

All TSBs and associated FW is posted there.

 

Did you miss that he pulled 10 000 lbs all over the place too?