Winter Tires.

Any issues going to a skinnier snow tire?

 

It just depends. All tires are compromises anyway, but this reality is more evident when looking at winter tires. What are you going to be driving on, how fast do you need to go, how far do you have to go.

I use my truck for work at client's homes, so ultimately I have to either be able to get up that driveway, or strap on snow shoes and carry all my tools up the driveway. So my tires are setup for driveways that are possibly poorly plowed, poorly graded and often unpaved. I run the biggest Nokian Hakkapelittas (studded) that will fit under my truck. On plowed freeways I am limited to about 50 mph, any faster and the truck starts rocking fore and aft like a front end loader or a farm tractor. But once I get to the address, I can get to the front door.

Lots and lots of folks (dare i say most folks?) go to a narrower tread width for winter tires. The rationale is you end up with better traction because the narrower tire cuts through the snow better and presses on the pavement with more pounds per square inch of contact patch on the pavement. About a third of my driving is on unpaved roads.

If you are doing lots and lots of interstate driving on plowed freeways in cold weather all you really need is a cold weather rubber compound. If you are on "wintry mix" and all paved roads, you are the typical snow tire customer and have a lot of choices. The blizzak was the king of studless snow tires for many years, but if you search on consumer reports and tirerack and etcetera dot com you will find three or four other tires that usually score about the same in all around testing on paved roads. This is where having a local tire guy who knows the local conditions and local roads can be so helpful. "If you are going (over that bridge, through this intersection, around that curve everyday) you will want this more expensive tire, but if you only do that (whatever local trouble spot) a couple times a month you can probably save $200 and buy a set of this less expensive tires.

Local to me it is the traffic circles, the rotaries. They must be really hard to plow, all the local ones have impenatrable hard pack snow on them (ice not quite firm enough to skate on) about two hours after the first snow flake hits the ground. September to April the local traffic circles are where the meetings of the summer tire club owners occur day after day, I typically have to use all 8 of the local rotaries every week.

If you are on black ice, bare ice or bare shiny hardpacked snow with any regularity studs are the way to go. If you are typically on plowed pavement running a narrower tread width makes sense. The only time you want to run a wider winter tire ( a canoe paddle that limits your top speed) is unplowed snow deeper than 6" or so for a Tacoma with 4WD. If I had thirty feet of paved driveway with 6" of snow on it and a 3 mile commute on plowed paved roads I would run a narrower tire in winter, and shovel the driveway when I get home.

 

OEM tacoma rims are readily available and can be counted on to meet all engineering specs. I got a second set of 5 OE rims from someone who had bought some styling rims, I paid $120, so I have my winters moutned on one set of OE rims and my factory tires on my factory rims. For the seasonal change over I just need a jack and a lug wrench. And some time. Check your local craigslist and the for sale section in your regional subforum here.

I don't know about the GenIIIs. On my Gen II I couldn't get programmable TPMS sensors. If I had bought used TPMS sensors off some other truck I would have to pay someone to flash the computer in my truck twice annually, so I just look at the stupid light on dashboard 6/12 months,and keep an eye on my tire pressures like I have been doing for the last 40 years anyway.

On my last truck that could accept tire chains at all four corners I just ran three season tires year round and ran chains 8-10 days per year. I like this system better, because I don't have to worry about taking time to chain up when the phone is ringing off the hook. I swap to winters in September when driving gets exciting, and swap to summers in April when I am the slowest thing on the freeway.

I lived in Schenectady for about ten years, back before climate change was a thing. Given you are far enough north of Manhattan to list "Hudson Valley" as your location instead of NYC, you are probably far enough north, with severe enough winters, to seriously consider having two sets of rims.

Good luck and best wishes.

 

Nota Bene: The studs on my Hakkapelita 8s lasted about 5k miles on plowed freeway driving. Then studs on my Hakka 9s lasted about 3k miles on plowed freeway. I am still running my Hakka 9s as my winter tire, with no useful stud they are still a great snow tire that is somewhat ambivalent on ice. When I wear my Hakka 9s to the point they aren't a good snow tire anymore I will look at the price difference between Hakka and the same Nokian tire with no studs pretty hard.

If only DOT would stop plowing the freeways so the studs on my Hakkas would last longer....

 

Thanks. By issues I meant any problems with changing from the factory P265/70R16 tires to a skinnier tire in terms of the truck performance in general (like speedometer, etc.), not snow in particular. I'm in the Hudson Valley in NY. Typically paved roads but I like to storm chase for skiing into the Catskills, Adirondacks, and Vermont, so I've often been on roads between plows with snow accumulating. I've had no problem in my Honda Odyssey with snows, and my former VW Jetta with no snows, but I'd rather have snows on. Those Taco OR Wranglers look pretty big compared to what I was driving before. Skinnier seems to make more sense for what I want to do, but I could definitely find myself in snow deeper than 6".

 

You read my mind a deduced my location. Brewster, NY, about 80 minutes north of Grand Central on Metro North (but I grew up outside of Syracuse, so I know snow, and my parents still live there). If snowboarding wasn't such a passion I'd stick with all seasons for here, but I especially like to get to the mountain on a storm day, and the mountain could be the Catskills, Daks, VT, or Berkshires. I also like to get to the trailhead where I might get plowed in while backcountry boarding. I expect the Taco to get me out of that situation better than my Odyssey did. I will definitely keep a look out for a good deal on OEM rims. Thanks for the knowledge.

 

That's $120 per wheel, right?

 

Nope. 5 OEM rims, $120 for all. Keep shopping. You might call around to your local scrap yards too. I was prepared and expecting to pay more. I am not willing to pay more than $100 per OE rim, there is a scad of them out there. You want to find the guy with fancy rims on his taco that needs to make room in his garage for his new motorcycle. I left Schenectady before Bill Clinton got elected the first time, I have no idea what your local market prices are this century.

 

Again, thanks for the knowledge! I'll keep a lookout for a set. Getting the spare seems a bit much, but I guess if you needed it, you wouldn't want one non-snow out of 4.

 

Hi all!
I'm retiring my Blizzak DMV-1s and am looking to move to Hakkapeliitta Lt3 studded.
I'm running 285/70/17 and the Blizzak have discontinued the DMV-1s and have no 285/70/17 in the DMV-2s.
The Hakka LT3s DO come in a 285/70/17, studded and non-studded and are rated at 121 load index (3100) and are 45.2 pounds
The Blizzaks are load index 118 (2833) and are 46 pounds
Can anyone with tire experience, or especially Blizzak to Hakka LT3 experience, tell me if this will make any significant difference in handling or stiffness with the load index increasing from 118 to 121?
According to the quote below, "equal or greater" is acceptable.
At 285/70/17 I run 27 psi and get a great ride and tire wear.
There are multiple other tire options in the 265/70/17 size. I prefer the 285s for appearance as the truck is lifted.
I live in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada and we have a LOT of snow and black ice throughout the entire winter.
I just put a TrueTrac in the rear, so that will help, but studs will be the clincher for ice.
I'm not wanting the truck to ride like a little red wagon, if the LT3s are too stiff for the weight of the Tacoma and would like some real world opinions.
Thanks all!




The load range/ply rating branded on a tire's sidewall identifies how much load the tire is designed to carry at its industry specified pressure. Passenger tires feature named load ranges while light truck tires use load ranges that ascend in alphabetical order (letters further along in the alphabet identify stronger tires that can withstand higher inflation pressures and carry heavier loads). Before load ranges were adopted, ply ratings and/or the actual number of casing plies were used to identify the relative strength with higher numeric ratings or plies identifying tires featuring stronger, heavier duty constructions.

Today's load range/ply ratings do not count the actual number of body ply layers used to make up the tire's internal structure, but indicate an equivalent strength compared to early bias ply tires. Most radial passenger tires have one or two body plies, and light truck tires, even those with heavy-duty ratings (10-, 12- or 14-ply rated), actually have only two or three fabric plies, or one steel body ply.

In all cases, when changing tire sizes or converting from one type of size to another, it is important to confirm that the Load Index in the tire's service description of the new tire is equal to or greater than the Load Index of the original tire and/or that the new tire's rated load capacity is sufficient to carry the vehicle's gross axle weight ratings.

"The load range/ply rating branded on a tire's sidewall identifies how much load the tire is designed to carry at its industry specified pressure."

 

I step down from 265/70R17 to 255/70R17 for the winter. I end up hitting enough standing water, slush, and snow in the interior of BC that makes it worth choosing a skinnier tire. DM-V2 have been fantastic, as least as good as the DM-V1 set before.

My biggest considerations last time was whether to stay with a winter highway type or choose a more aggressive Duratrac/Toyo CT/Grabber Arctic LT type tire. In the end I chose the Blizzaks again. I'm not disappointed.

 

@Bartlett18 , how much does your fully loaded truck weigh in the winter? Just asking. I have had a set of Nokian Hakka 8 under my truck, and now a set of Nokkian Hakka 9. They sell a Hakka 10 now I see as well. My two sets were both labeled "SUV" rather than light truck. They are the biggest tires I can fit under the factory suspended truck, 285 something 17. Maybe 275, I can look when I get home.

I really like the Hakkas under my truck in Fairbanks. I use my truck for work and carry "some" gear and tools with me. Not very heavy though. If I were to park on a scale, take all my work stuff out and put in a 150-200# passenger the weight of the truck would be about the same. So something like 4700-4800 pounds total for my truck in winter trim with my personal truck stuff, loaded for work, full tank of fuel, me in the driver's seat.

Road conditions matter. On Hakkas I wish DOT would just stop driving snow plows around and instead leave the snow laying on the freeway. I run about 30-32 psi cold (ambient). On poorly graded unplowed roads and etc the truck is unstoppable. On black ice the brakes work great. Up around 55-60 mph on plowed freeway my truck rocks back and forth on the axles like a front end loader.

The one thing I don't like about the Hakkas is stud longevity on plowed pavement. 3-5k miles on plowed asphalt and the studs are worn down to about nothing.

One of my colleagues has a Tundra and runs Nokkia Nordmans in the winter, likes them just fine.

As vicali already pointed out, you have to think about the road conditions you see. I run big old canoe paddle tires so I can get up customer's unplowed driveways without breaking a sweat, but it costs me top speed on the freeway. I don't see standing slush for more than maybe a week or so around the spring melt.

Hakka 8 were 265/70/17. Thread here: https://www.tacomaworld.com/threads/nokian-hakkapeliitta-8-review.393719/

I think my Hakka 9 were the same size: https://www.tacomaworld.com/threads/nokian-hakkapeliitta-9-review.522644/

 

Thanks Vicali! I've been super happy with my DMV-1s! The reason that I looked at another tire, other than the DMV-2, was that the largest DMV-2 is 265/70/17 and I didn't want too large of a gap in the wheel wells with the 3 inch lift. After comparing the two sizes on a tire calculator, the 265 is one inch "shorter", while sitting on the ground beside a 285. This means I'll lose half an inch of ground clearance and increase half an inch in the space between the top of the tire and the wheel well. I'm not sure I'd notice, unless I'm obsessing about it. The 265/70/17 opens up a whole lot of tire options!

Thanks Poindexter!

Each 285 tire is 14 pounds heavier than stock and the canopy topper is 200 pounds. I keep emergency gear, cables, parka, boots, shovel, etc in the back in the winter, so maybe another 60 pounds. With the wife and dog, shotgun, that's another 190. So, my best guess is 700 pounds heavier than a stock DBLcab shortbox with me in it. My Blizzaks are 10 years old this winter and have 9/32s tread left. The rubber is still soft to the fingernail in the dead of winter and the tire shop I took them to last winter for a check up, said they looked, practically, new with no side wall cracks etc. This was after asking them for a quote for new tires. They are cleaned, wrapped and stored in a heated garage under covers. I'm starting to wonder if I can get another winter or two out of them, now... You have also made me question studded tires. Typical winter tires are 13/32s new and the LT3s are 17/32s new, so they would be better in deep snow...

Back to Google!!

I'll take the tires in again this week.

Just read that the LT3 swapped out Stainless steel studs for the Tungsten ones. Improvement? Tungsten is way harder I thought.[/QUOTE]

 

You, me and I bet vicali too. Snowshoes with poles, jetboil, some sugar and enough tea to make two cups, chainsaw. Don't make tea by melting yellow snow. I have some year round crap in the truck and some seasonal crap that moves back and forth between the crossbed tool box and a shelf in the garage.

I am not sure what metal was used for the studs in the Hakka8 SUV. IIRC they used carbide (tungsten carbide?) in the Hakka 9s, samey same 3-5k drive pavement miles to wear out for me.

My hakka 9 are sized 265/70-17, stock suspension, no lift or etc.

Nokian does also sell a studless version of the Hakka this year if you don't see a lot of black ice. Hakka R3.

EDIT I just ran out to look, my summer rim/ tire combo is factory size 245/75-16 on OEM rims. If I had room in the fenders I would not step up to 285 winter tires unless I had jack doodle for plowed pavement mileage and was spending 98% of my time on unplowed offroad snow at speeds up to 35-40mph. On the highway 285 tread is going to be a LOT of sidewall height and a LOT of squishyness. Unless you are carrying a lot of weight. If someone has a big generator and a welding machine and maybe a couple tanks for a cutting torch in the bed; that weight would change the equation around a lot.

 

Winter gear on top of recovery and toolbox, jackall, shovel, canopy- and sometimes 4 sandbags go in the back for all winter.
Rides like a tank through snow.

I find all winter in between clear pavement in town, melting slush on the highways, and loose snow on the backroads. Blizzaks handle it all easy with no tire spin, not abs, no drama at all.

switching between my Pseries winters and my E load Toyos is a noticeable difference in drivability and comfort.

 

I'm running 265/75/16 LT3's and they are phenomenal. I can drive around in RWD in 6" of snow without batting an eye. Have never been able to do that with any other tire (including other winters). They ride smooth and quiet on the highway and barely wear. They are D rated so stiffer than SL, but smoother than E. Best winter's i've ever driven.

 

Thanks for the input, Greg! I'm stuck with a 17 inch rim, but if I went with the 265/70/17, it would be the exact same dimensions as your 265/75/16, save the inner diameter. Do you have studded or non-studded? What psi do you run? I run 27 on the 285/70/17 Blizzaks. The Blizzaks are P rated, so a D load tire will be stiffer. If you could compare your SL vs your D load for increased stiffness, how noticable would it be? We have tons of frost heaves in Edmonton and it could get tiresome if the stiffness is really noticable. Thanks! I appreciate it!!
Barrett

 

Okay, here is some info that might help someone, somewhere...

I'm going to ignore the 285/70/17 size that I was originally looking for, as there are very few manufacturers that make this size, that make it into the top 10 winter tires and the one i want (Hakkapeliitta LT3 is a 121 load index E rated tire) is much heavier and stiff. My 285/70/17 Blizzak DMV-1s are discontinued and the DMV-2 do not come in this size.

So 265/70/17:

Hakkapeliitta R3 SUV $265.88CAD ($210.71us)---Load index 115 (2679lbs)---P-rated---standard load---36.5lbs
The Nokian Hakkapeliitta R3 SUV is our top-rated winter tire for 2020-2021. While the tread has less bite than the Hakkapeliitta 9 in deep snow, the R3 prevails with shorter braking distances on ice, as well as better handling and more controlled stops on wet or dry pavement. Noise levels match those of the Continental and Pirelli models, which are the leaders in this department.

Overall, the Hakkapeliitta R3 SUV is the best and most pleasant winter tire from Nokian in daily driving conditions. The lineup includes several XL sizes and run-flat models, too.

Hakkapeliitta LT3 $314.10CAD ($248.93us)---Load index 121 (3197lbs---E rated---XL load---42.3lbs RATED BEST LIGHT TRUCK TIRE FOR DEEP SNOW

Hakkapeliitta 9 $254.98CAD ($202.07us)---Load index 115 (2679lbs)---P-rated---standard load---39.6lbs
The Hakkapeliitta 9 SUV could have finished first in a tie with the Hakkapeliitta R3 SUV, but we ultimately put it in third place behind the new Bridgestone WS90, which is cheaper. It still is the best snow tire on the market without a doubt, gripping snow like no other and spitting it out in a hurry. The Hakkapeliitta 9 performs well on slippery surfaces with braking distances similar to those of the best ice tires. The factory-studded variant seemingly increases traction tenfold. On the flip side, the ride is less comfortable and louder than conventional ice tires due to the rigid construction and more sculpted tread. Keep in mind that all Hakka tire sizes are XL models. Consequently, the Hakkapeliitta R3 SUV and Bridgestone WS90 are a better fit for passenger cars and small SUVs on a daily basis.

Hakkapeliitta 10 SUV studded $277.88CAD ($220.22us)---Load index 115(2679lbs) ---P-rated---36.6lbs

Blizzak DMV-2 $260.99CAD ($206.84us)---Load index 115(2679lbs) ---P-rated---41lbs
The Bridgestone DM-V2 finished second last year in our winter tire tests for full-size pickups. In previous years, it repeatedly flirted with the top spot along with the Nokian models. While it now occupies the sixth place in our rankings, this proven Blizzak retains all of its solid attributes on snow and ice, including excellent handling and short braking distances. It also delivers a smooth, controlled ride on wet and dry pavement.

We downgraded the model simply because new tires like the Blizzak WS90 utilize more modern technology. It probably would have landed among the top three had our latest tests involved large SUVs and pickups instead of lighter vehicles with reduced payload capacity.

For reference stock 245/75/16 Dunlops All Seasons are Load index 109 (2271lbs)--- P-rated---32lbs

I think I'm going to give up a half inch of ground clearance and half inch increase in wheel well gap and go for a smaller, lighter, cheaper, less stiff tire. In Canada, we have what are refered to as "frost heaves". Basically, they are like techtonic plates, that separate and collide, through the temperature extremes and form mini-mountains in the asphalt. It's like driving over really sharp speed bumps. The stiffer tires may drive me insane... more so. To go from a 115 to 121 load index, means each 121 tire can handle 518 pounds more than the 115 on each tire. Unladen trucks would ride like little red wagons, I would think.

Anyways... hope this is usefull to someone looking for tires.
Cheers,
Barrett

 

Hard to say, i switched my suspension at the same time. Definitely stiffer, but not as stiff as my E rated 285's. I'm happy with their comfort level. Which suspension are you running? I usually run around 30psi cold.