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WS transmission fluid is garbage . Get it out of your transmission now

Discussion in 'Technical Chat' started by gearcruncher, Jun 3, 2014.

  1. Jun 3, 2014 at 3:31 PM
    #1
    gearcruncher

    gearcruncher [OP] Well-Known Member

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    Here we go :D
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2014
    opteron likes this.
  2. Jun 3, 2014 at 3:34 PM
    #2
    gearcruncher

    gearcruncher [OP] Well-Known Member

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    WS is garbage , dont use it after warranty runs out .....better yet , get it out now before your warranty runs out !:D Toyota Cant deny warranty of transmission fluid as long as it is WS compatible .
    Give me a minute ! I am still working on this post with credible sources so dont call me out until I am finished :) Why would a guy with 30 years experience ....17 years of which owning my own shop working on transmissions every day say this ?
    EDIT : still waiting for copywrite information to get released to me . I asked if i could use the information at Tacoma World ....now i am waiting for a reply ( Sept 15/2014). Sent another email Sept 13 . I will bump the post with new information as soon as I get permission .If you dont like waiting , think of how I feel being the OP .
    Why should I waste my time and your time by reading this throwing a bunch of information together ? because like you , I am here to help others understand how manufacturers operate and how they try to skim past rules and regulations by trying to fool consumers into beleiving that you need a speacial fluid in your transmission to save fuel .WS fluid is nothing but a ploy used by Toyota to get away from paying taxes on environmental fees and that is all it is period .Can any of you tell us what transmission fluid is considered to be a lifetime fluid ? There is no such thing in this day and age .Toyota is like all the rest; they make recommendations that are good from a PR standpoint but not so good from the mechanical perspective. Transmission fluid changes, or lack of, is only one of those PR moves.Unfortunately, a lot of mechanics even at the dealership level buy into ill-advised things like this.
    If the car manufacturers feel so confident in fluid longevity then let them warranty the transmissions for the life of the vehicle......... This post , when finished is going to prove to you that there are better suited fluids even at Walmart that superceed the characteristics of WS transmission fluid

    Get that god awful fluid out of your transmission as soon as you can. The issue with WS is the proven fact that it cant handle the heat and breaks down to acid in a short period of time .

    For you guys that have questions regarding warranty coverage ...read this . Its going to explain to you that Toyota Cant deny a warranty claim becuase you changed your transmission fluid to an aftermarket blend .
    http://www.zabteck.com/MagnusonMossWarrantyAct.pdf

    If you plan to change your transmission fluid and dont plan to use World standard fluid , try to find an aftermarket fluid thats WS endorsed

    Question :
    (1)Why did Toyota change their transmission fluid to World Standard ( WS ) in 2005 ?

    Answer : Selling 168,000 2nd generation tacomas in 2005 , Toyota needed to find a way to avoid hefty environmental fees .Toyota pays an environmental fee for each vehichle they sell to us . This was acheived by introducing WS fluid to the market as a lifetime fluid capable of 100k without as much as a service saving Toyota millions .Toyota wanted you as a customer to beleive that WS was created to save fuel which is simply not true .

    (2)Was there anything wrong with the fluid they recommended for their transmissions from 1972 - 2002 ?

    Yes , Toyota had to pay environmental fees because the fluid used needed servicing much sooner

    (3)Did they do it for reliability ?
    WS fluid cant handle any heat . This is extremelly well proven and will back up everything mentioned in this post .There are some proven accounts listed here http://www.artsautomotive.com/about/78-genuine-fluids

    (4) Did they do it to save their customers money by changing the transmission service interval to 100,000 miles ?

    Answer ...No, We know that synthetic tends to flow better when its cold, that it resists shearing better than conventional, that it protects better under high heat conditions, and that in general it usually has a lower NOACK and a higher film strength. WS transmission fluid is not synthetic like Toyota has claimed .

    (5)Did they spend countless hours engineering a new transmission fluid that would last forever and was far superior to any other fluid on the market and did the engineers look at what happens when the fluid breaks down ?

    Answer . No - Toyota introduced WS fluid to save money on environmental tax fees by telling the government that WS fluid would last 100,000 miles without a service . If you look at the bottom of this post , the contents of WS fluid has been broken down into particulates . Notice anything unusual ? what are the professional oil analysts saying about WS when exposed to heat and why did Toyota suddenly and recently change the transmission service interval from 100k down to 60K? NOTE : check the fees when purchasing your truck

    (6)Why does Aisn Warner who make the transmission say that the transmission fluid needs to be changed every 30 k and 25 k under severe use yet Toyota says the fluid is good for 100k ?

    (7)What parts within the transmission changed making the new WS fluid necessary ?

    The A750 series which was released in 2003 reqiured WS fluid yet the clutching , electronics and converter clutch were similar to the A340 from the early 1990,s . Much the same as the Toyota camry using the identical transmission and clutching yet now requires WS fluid

    (8)What is so special about this fancy WS transmission fluid that Toyota recommends for The Aisn Warner A750 series transmission ?

    Lets have a peek at the content of WS fluid
    The WS fluid is nothing special and not synthetic like Toyata claims . Taking a look at the MSDS for WS fluid designed by Exxon , pay close attention to the flashpoint and you are going to see that WS collapses massively under heat
    http://www.kd5byb.net/Tundra/ATF%20WS%20MSDS1.pdf

    Now take a look at WS fluid designed by Esso and notice the flashpoint is much lower than the Exxon WS but still collapses massively under heat
    http://www.kd5byb.net/Tundra/ATF WS MSDS2.pdf

    Now take a look at the German blend of WS known as Ravenol . In the link provided , you are going to see that WS is used in many different vehicles in Europe . What we can conclude from this is that WS is not specific to Toyota . Still waiting for an msds from Ravenol to compare against the North American blends . I highly expect a totally different fluid similar to Max Life
    http://www.ravenol.de/produkte/verwendung/d/Product/show/p/ravenol-atf-t-ws-lifetime.html

    KV 100C just below 6cSt
    BV -40C about 8500cP
    20 hour KRL shear 10% vis loss
    FZG a/8.3/90 9 LS
    Foam
    Seq I 30/0
    Seq II 40/0
    Seq III 20/0
    Seq IV 30/0
    The VM collapses massively under thermal stress.


    Lets have a look at valvoline Maxlife that can be purchased from your local Wallmart .
    Here is the PDF . Pay close attention to the viscosity and flaspoint . Max life does not collapse massively when its exposed to the same heat stress as WS . There is very little viscosity breakdown .
    http://www.valvoline.com/pdf/maxlife_atf.pdf
    THOMAS R. SMITH
    Vice President, Branded Lubricant Technology
    Ashland Consumer Markets
    August 22, 2011
    To Whom It May Concern:
    MaxLife ATF is a full synthetic automatic transmission fluid designed to meet the needs of the broadest range of transmission designs. MaxLife ATF recommendations are based on a combination of field testing and laboratory testing.
    Valvoline recommends MaxLife ATF in a broad range of transmissions. The list below is just a sample of applications where Valvoline supports the use of MaxLife ATF. Valvoline has conducted in-house testing, independent lab testing, and field-testing to support MaxLife ATF performance in these transmissions; however, it is important to note that the respective vehicle[​IMG] manufacturers have neither evaluated nor approved MaxLife ATF in these applications.
    • Allison TES 389, C-4
    • ATF 3403 M115
    • Audi/VW G-052-025-A1/A2, G-055-025, G-052-162-A1/A2, G-055-005-A1/A2, G-055-162, G-060-162-A1/A2
    • BMW LT71141, LA2634, M-1375.4 fluids
    Ford[​IMG] MERCON
    • Ford FNR5
    • Ford MERCON® V
    • Ford MERCON® SP
    • MERCON® LV
    • GM 9986195
    • GM DEXRON® II, III and VI
    • Honda/Acura ATF-Z, DW-1 (except in CVTs)
    • Hyundai SP-II, SP-III, SP-IV, and SPH-IV
    • Jaguar JLM20238, LT71141
    • JWS 3309
    • KIA SP-II and SP-III Fluids
    • KIA Red 1
    • MAN 339 Type F
    • Mazda M-V
    • Mercedes Benz MB236.1, MB236.6, MB236.7, MB236.9, MB236.10
    • Mercedes Benz NAG-1
    • MOPAR AS68RC ATF
    • Miscellaneous OEMs – M1375.4
    • Mitsubishi Diamond SP-II and SP-III
    • Nissan Matic-D, Matic-J, Matic-K, and Matic-S
    Saab 93 165 147
    • Subaru ATF
    • Subaru ATF-HP
    • Toyota / Lexus Type T, T-III and T-IV
    • Toyota WS (except Hybrid vehicles[​IMG])
    • Voith H55.6336.33 (G1363), H55.6335.33 (G607)
    • Volvo 1161521 and 1161540, and STD 1273.41
    • VW TL52162
    • ZF TE-ML-14B, 16L, 17C
    Valvoline stands behind all of its products, including MaxLife ATF. Use of MaxLife ATF in transmissions where recommended by Valvoline WILL NOT void the vehicle’s warranty. Vehicle manufacturers are restricted by federal law from including the requirement of the use of a specific brand or trade name of product or service as a condition of their warranty. The following is an extract from the Federal Trade Commission’s web site on interpretation of the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act:
    "Tie-In Sales" Provisions Generally, tie-in sales provisions are not allowed. Such a provision would require a purchaser of the warranted product to buy an item or service from a particular company to use with the warranted product in order to be eligible to receive a remedy under the warranty. The following are examples of prohibited tie-in sales provisions.
    In order to keep your new Plenum Brand Vacuum Cleaner warranty in effect, you must use genuine Plenum Brand Filter Bags. Failure to have
    scheduled maintenance performed, at your expense, by the Great American Maintenance Company, Inc., voids this warranty.
    Valvoline has conducted extensive testing and has a long history of successful use of MaxLife ATF in a broad range of applications. In the unlikely event that you or your customer experiences any transmission damage while using MaxLife ATF in a Valvoline recommended application, please contact Valvoline at 1-800-Team-VAL for assistance.
    While MaxLife ATF is designed to meet the special needs of higher mileage transmissions, new transmissions can also benefit from its enhanced oxidation protection, shear stability, seal compatibility, wear protection and anti-shudder protection. Many consumers have chosen to take advantage of this level of performance in newer transmissions.
    Valvoline does not recommend MaxLife ATF for use in most continuously variable transmissions (CVTs) unless specifically noted nor in automatic transmissions where Ford Type F fluids are recommended.
    Sincerely,
    Thom Smith
    Vice President, Branded Lubricant Technology
    Ashland Consumer Markets
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2014
    opteron likes this.
  3. Jun 11, 2014 at 9:46 PM
    #3
    Spoonman

    Spoonman Granite Guru

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    My truck is MAGIC
    So.... Why is it bad...
     
  4. Jun 11, 2014 at 10:09 PM
    #4
    gearcruncher

    gearcruncher [OP] Well-Known Member

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    Working on it Spoon . Give me a little time to finish the post

    I will back this up with credible sources shortly. Sometimes when backing up credible information , it takes time to get " permissions " to post what others feel is copywright information if you know what I mean
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2014
  5. Jun 11, 2014 at 10:36 PM
    #5
    bluewaters182

    bluewaters182 Well-Known Member

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  6. Jun 11, 2014 at 10:45 PM
    #6
    Rich91710

    Rich91710 Well-Known Member

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    Similar to what I was told by Trans guys I trust about GM's Dexron-VI that they started stuffing into 2006 transmissions.
    I had the Duramax and ditched the Dex-VI for Amsoil Torque-Drive (comparable to Allison's TransSynd) as soon as I was able to order 5 gallons.

    So what about T-IV vs Dex-III? Should be be running Dex-III in all Toyota transmissions, or is T-IV the good stuff?

    I was considering Mobil-1 Dex-III for the Duramax, but the same sources that said that Dex-VI was shit said that Dex-III was totally incompatible... leaving TransSynd and TorqueDrive good options for the Allison in the Duramax, but leaving owners of GM transmissions in a tight spot.
     
  7. Jun 11, 2014 at 10:49 PM
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    Loco38SUP

    Loco38SUP Well-Known Member

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    I'm getting ready to do a tranny fluid change.

    Lets hear what is a better option than the WS fluid.

    RJM
     
  8. Jun 11, 2014 at 11:14 PM
    #8
    NEWBIETACO

    NEWBIETACO Im not like the other Crumbs, Im my own Crumb

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  9. Jun 12, 2014 at 1:06 PM
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    welterbf123

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  10. Jun 12, 2014 at 1:10 PM
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    Boone

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  11. Jun 12, 2014 at 1:14 PM
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    MonsterTaco11

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  12. Jun 12, 2014 at 1:15 PM
    #12
    coastemac

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  13. Jun 12, 2014 at 1:19 PM
    #13
    yotarob2005

    yotarob2005 Kiss My IFS

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  14. Jun 12, 2014 at 1:39 PM
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    esse10

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    :popcorn: It can't be all that bad I went 142k miles in my 2005 prerunner with no tranny issues. I just recently replaced the fluid with Valvoline
    MaxLife® DEX/MERC ATF

    and still no issues..........Knock on wood. LOL :D
     
  15. Jun 12, 2014 at 2:17 PM
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    Spoonman

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    Once they fluid is in your tranny you'll never get it all out. It's absorbed into all the clutches...might as well stick with it
     
  16. Jun 12, 2014 at 3:54 PM
    #16
    PMK

    PMK Well-Known Member

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    I forget the mileage I drained my WS out, somewhere around 20k. Replaced it with Mobil1 ATF. Been a couple of years and maybe 23k miles. Shifts better, the gear selector works smoother, no complaints.

    When I did the complete flush by removing the return hose from the cooler, the WS was already darkening.

    I agree with Gearcruncher, I never found anything that proved WS was synthetic or really anything more than a regular old transmission fluid.

    PK
     
  17. Jun 13, 2014 at 6:11 PM
    #17
    Timbo89

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    So what do you recommend for the transmissions in our trucks then thats at most parts stores
     
  18. Jun 13, 2014 at 7:53 PM
    #18
    NWOffroad

    NWOffroad Active Member

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    Interesting....
    Have 38k on the odo and time to do a service.
    Have used lots of Lucas Oil products in the dez race vehicles in the past and they have always performed well. They offer 2 ATF fluids.
     
  19. Jun 16, 2014 at 9:54 AM
    #19
    steezinstangl

    steezinstangl Well-Known Member

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    just flushed all the toyota ws fluid out about 2000 miles ago and replaced it with valvoline maxlife synthetic. no problems what so ever. and only costed me around 60 bucks for 4 gallons at walmart:D
     
  20. Jun 16, 2014 at 11:22 AM
    #20
    yotarob2005

    yotarob2005 Kiss My IFS

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    I'm sitting here on the edge of my seat OP, come on with the facts. :cool:
     
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