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N/A vs TRD S/C

Discussion in 'Performance and Tuning' started by s7racing, Aug 19, 2012.

  1. Aug 19, 2012 at 8:38 AM
    #1
    s7racing

    s7racing [OP] Well-Known Member

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    I always thought the best bang for your buck as only way to get noticeable performance increase was through boost. But after searching extensively it seems you can get around 35-40 more rwhp with intake, headers, exhaust, and URD maf cal. This would set me back around $1200 total. A TRD charger gets you 63 rwhp, I think?? And that would prob run $4,200 before taxes. I'd be pretty happy with 35-40 more hp for just over a grand.
     
  2. Aug 19, 2012 at 8:55 AM
    #2
    jberry813

    jberry813 The Mad Scientist

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    Show me a dyno sheet. :rolleyes:

    The other thing you need to remember with intake/exhaust is all the gains are top end PEAK hp gains. In most situations, you'll actually lose low end hp and torque. Unless you spend most you're time above 4000 rpm, you probably won't notice anything on the ass dyno except louder noises. A supercharger is going to give you more power through the entire RPM range.
     
  3. Aug 19, 2012 at 9:13 AM
    #3
    ScreamingTaco

    ScreamingTaco Huge Member

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    +1

    Years ago Hot Rod Magazine did a build up of a Chevy 454 crate motor. I don't remember the details of what parts gave what figures but the gist of it was that with typical bolt on parts a lot of the HP gains came at the cost of low end torque. It wasn't until they added a supercharger that they had significant gains in both HP and torque.
     
  4. Aug 19, 2012 at 9:52 AM
    #4
    s7racing

    s7racing [OP] Well-Known Member

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    I was worried about the low end power loss, Gadget from URD says that's bs, I've also pm'ed some members with those mods who said they increased power across the rpm range. My main goal is to increase power above 3k. I found dyno's of similar set ups in the n/a dyno thread.
     
  5. Aug 19, 2012 at 10:51 AM
    #5
    ScreamingTaco

    ScreamingTaco Huge Member

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    Im not going to argue that bolt on mods do nothing since its not true, but the effectiveness of a lot of them are what I question.

    A lot of people will claim "seat of the pants" gains when changing fuel octane. They'll claim seat of the pants gains when they install an expensive air filter in the stock air box. They'll claim seat of the pants gains when they install a louder exhaust and/or fuzzy dice on the mirror. Truth is, air pressure also changes performance in a N/A engine and you never read people commenting on seat of the pants gains on cold days vs hot days.

    URD makes money by selling you stuff... Keep that in mind whenever a vendor is giving you product/performance advice. My dad was a mechanic that built engines for drag cars in addition to owning his own garage. He had this stupid plastic thing on his shop counter that improved fuel mileage when attached to the fuel system. When asked, it worked great. When you opened the hood of his daily driver there was no such modification in place because it didn't do jack shit.

    I've done a lot of them when I was younger and truthfully all of them were disappointing from a performance perspective. My Dad told me but I wasn't prepared to listen. The changes were generally subtle and without a dyno I'd guess that the actual increases after parasitic losses were minimal. My truck (Chevy 1/2 ton with 350ci engine, aftermarket intake, ignition, headers, cats and exhaust) sounded awesome, but in the end it didn't pull off the line any harder or hit top end significantly quicker than stock. Without modifying the actual engine it wasn't tuned to reap the benefits of the bolt on mods that I'd performed.

    In the end the decision is up to you. Honestly, I'm planning on doing most of those mods just to have a meaner sounding truck, but I don't really expect much in the way of actual performance.
     
  6. Aug 19, 2012 at 10:58 AM
    #6
    whippersnapper02

    whippersnapper02 Well-Known Member

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    Just look at the DTLT dyno sheet. You lose power until 3000ish RPM. One member on here has all the bolt on NA mods and he wishes he just went with the blower.
     
  7. Aug 19, 2012 at 11:26 AM
    #7
    jberry813

    jberry813 The Mad Scientist

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    1) Gadget's a great guy, but he doesn't own a business to loose money. There are gains on the top end, and you can bet your ass you wish you had your stock setup or gone with the supercharger the next time you're towing something or rolling on the throttle uphill and your truck feels like it's being powered by a gutless wombat. It forces you do drop a gear and just sucks.

    2) Very few people that buy performance mods are going to give a negative review on them. After all, they just spend hundreds or thousands of dollars on something. It's in people's nature to justify the money was well spent.

    If you want the mods for they way they make your truck sound, go for it. However don't expect to get anything measurable out of it. Dyno's don't lie, ass dyno's do.

    Exactly.
    How's this for "BS"

    [​IMG]
     
  8. Aug 20, 2012 at 5:50 AM
    #8
    Torspd

    Torspd Tor-nication

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    Op, half of these statements about "losing low end" or "only in top end", are not the whole truths.

    That is why I started this thread. http://www.tacomaworld.com/forum/pe...n-power-gains-dynos-w-mods-4.html#post5554805


    Let the dyno's with the mods show the true facts and gains. :top:

    Still needs more dyno's from manual trucks with mods such as the URD Y-pipe. That on Lucario Runner's 4Runner has a 30 HP difference at the end of his power band, with just swapping that component in. From the mid range to the end. Better flowing components equals better efficiency which frees up power.
     
  9. Aug 20, 2012 at 7:14 AM
    #9
    ScreamingTaco

    ScreamingTaco Huge Member

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    When I look at the dyno sheet I see a drop in performance beginning at 3700rpm and that the sheet has been scaled to hide performance below ~3300rpm.

    I also see that the performance gains were insignificant below 4800rpm and that most of the significant gains happened after the engine's redline.

    [​IMG]

    Edit: screwed up in Tapatalk and deleted part of the post. Edited to put the dyno sheet back in.
     
  10. Aug 20, 2012 at 7:22 AM
    #10
    Torspd

    Torspd Tor-nication

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    That is an automatic. It isn't scaled to "hide" anything. The reason the graph starts so high, is because you cannot start the pull any lower in rpm, on an auto. It won't work. It will shift gears, and jerk very roughly on the dyno.

    Also, there is no drop in performance on that graph at all. Just two different starting rpms.

    Also, another point to add, is that the tune on this dyno versus the prior with the factory Y-pipe, had 3 degrees less timing in it. Due to a slight problem we found. Given that, it still made that huge gain with the URD y-pipe.

    Now when we put that timing back in, the wtq would easily be over 300. The whp would be near 260.
     
  11. Aug 20, 2012 at 8:10 AM
    #11
    ScreamingTaco

    ScreamingTaco Huge Member

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    Edit: never mind. I'll let the chart speak for itself.
     
  12. Aug 20, 2012 at 8:11 AM
    #12
    whippersnapper02

    whippersnapper02 Well-Known Member

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    Sounds like ricer excuses.:D
     
  13. Aug 20, 2012 at 8:16 AM
    #13
    Torspd

    Torspd Tor-nication

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    What is the loss you are referring to, ScreamingTaco? It is clear that you don't quite understand how the dyno works, and that you are understanding that you cannot see any data prior to 3k rpms when you do a dyno on these automatic transmissions. The graph starts at that rpm. It doesn't show anything before. Those steep lines at the start of the graph are due to being at minimal throttle position, then going to WOT, right after the record button is pressed.

    Also, I forgot to address the second part of your comment about the redline. His redline is set to 6200 rpms. That line is just for a point of reference at that specific rpm. If you follow it fully to the end of his redline, then there is even a larger gap before and after the y-pipe. Very good gains for the 1GR.

    You want to increase the whole powerband? From idle on? Then replace heavy rotating components with their lighter equivalents. :thumbsup:

    Haha. Well played. Lol
     
  14. Aug 20, 2012 at 8:19 AM
    #14
    whippersnapper02

    whippersnapper02 Well-Known Member

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    Looks like he is at full throttle to me. The dyno wouldn't start sampling if before if he didn't hit the button. Also the chart doesn't say auto or manual.
     
  15. Aug 20, 2012 at 8:32 AM
    #15
    Torspd

    Torspd Tor-nication

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    When doing a dyno pull, you never press the 'Start' button until after the vehicle is already rolling in the proper gear at the proper rpm. Thus the pedal will never be at WOT until after the 'Start' button is pressed. The throttle will be at a small percentage of open for a brief period, during the sample.
     
  16. Aug 20, 2012 at 8:36 AM
    #16
    whippersnapper02

    whippersnapper02 Well-Known Member

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    I think the streams were crossed. I'm talking about the DT graph.

    I know how a dyno works.:thumbsup:
     
  17. Aug 20, 2012 at 8:40 AM
    #17
    MadToy

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    It's an N/A 4Runner going 14.5 in the quarter mile, with a 2.0 60' time. There's obviously big gains in both low end and top end, regardless of what you think the dyno says.
     
  18. Aug 20, 2012 at 8:40 AM
    #18
    Torspd

    Torspd Tor-nication

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    Ahh yes. lol. Yeah. I got confused about what you were talking about. The ,'I am telling you' is meant to be plural. I need to correct that.

    I would put money down, that the FJ dyno was a manual though. Since its starting rpm is so low.
     
  19. Aug 20, 2012 at 8:44 AM
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    whippersnapper02

    whippersnapper02 Well-Known Member

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    In the end though, my buddy is getting a Pro Charger on his 06 GTO and it will probably be faster than any X Runner on XRU.:D:stirthepot:
     
  20. Aug 20, 2012 at 8:44 AM
    #20
    Torspd

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    Yes sir. I think his fastest time was actually a 14.3. On factory sized tires and one wheel peel. One tenth of a second behind an heavily modded N/A XRunner on drag slicks.
     
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