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Oil in intake manifold...?

Discussion in 'Performance and Tuning' started by TACOMABOSS, Jul 15, 2013.

  1. Jul 16, 2013 at 8:19 PM
    #21
    TACOMABOSS

    TACOMABOSS [OP] Well-Known Member

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    200+ bucks? Wow
     
  2. Jul 16, 2013 at 8:25 PM
    #22
    BradyT88

    BradyT88 Skinkwerks Rockware & Fabrication!!

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    or $145+ for the stealth model, before the discount. Ebay ones typically run about $60-$100 but most of them are garbage and cause vacuum leaks in your motor...
     
  3. Jul 16, 2013 at 8:30 PM
    #23
    BamaToy1997

    BamaToy1997 ASE Master Tech Vendor

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    I am not about to waste my money on these things. I have driven countless vehicles without them, and never had to worry about it. Just my opinion, yes, but still...
     
  4. Jul 17, 2013 at 9:15 AM
    #24
    BradyT88

    BradyT88 Skinkwerks Rockware & Fabrication!!

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    What if you were running forced induction? Those are the guys that seem to swear by them. They typically say they are a good idea for N/A but are really important for F/I. Could just be that they are going for maximum power output at all times though so they want to keep the engine as clean and running as well as possible.
     
  5. Jul 17, 2013 at 9:20 AM
    #25
    BlackSportD

    BlackSportD Well-Known Member

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    TRD S/C, TS PNP AEM FIC, TS 420cc injectors, TS water/meth, TS 2.2 pulley, Hayden tranny cooler, AEM wideband, TRD boost gauge.
    I don't know where in my statement I said it was emperical. My distance per tank went up consistently after the install and so I threw a theory out- key word theory. It could be any number of other things of course. I roll my eyes when people say catch cans reduce the possibility of ping (oil vapors have lower octane value) because IMO one would be loosing a lot of oil to create enough vapors to affect the mix that drastically, so I get where you are coming from, but I had to rattle my mind with something to explain the gain. Hell maybe I fixed a vacuum leak or something coincedently. Water though has a huge thermal value, humidity affects power, and with the amount of water I've caught that otherwise would have served no other purpose than absorb BTUs got me thinking.

    Everyone's income is different. Some don't think its much expense to run a can to keep the runners clean, some don't see an issue with how OE made it. I'm a big fan of OE, hense I didn't suggest this mod is very important for port injection. But when you have various OEs having TSBs for direct injection cleaning (Lexus even completely replacing the pistons and rings with IS250s), its a different story for direct injected engines (not relivent to us, but probably to future Tacos). OEs are great, and usually release a great product, but there are always growing pains here and there, and we got to witness the birth of Direct Injection, and an OE un-forseen side-affect of not having fuel touch the intake valves. Its an easy fix on the user end, but with various laws and regulations, not such an easy fix for the OEs on cars already sold. VW began a patent for a catalytic surface on the intake valves, BMW and Audi on a complicated catch can type system, Ford on a servicable/replace per mileage filter. Some direct injected cars seem not to suffer, seems they do not have a lot of blow-by and/or a slow/non-turbulent crank case system. That is the path Lexus is going, they made the piston rings tighter on the TSB sets, and the newer models of the same engine come with that installed. I suppose their hope is to drastically reduce blow-by as the cure. To me that just slows it down.
     
  6. Jul 17, 2013 at 9:25 AM
    #26
    tooter

    tooter play every day

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    I agree. For normal everyday driving, they're not necessary. Oil coating the intake manifold is perfectly normal. This is the inside of a 2.7 manifold.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    The fuel spraying from the injectors acts like a solvent to keep the oil from depositing on the intake valves. Here, you can see exactly where the oily coating is continually being washed off. :)

    [​IMG]
     
  7. Jul 17, 2013 at 11:25 PM
    #27
    Justus

    Justus fucks not given

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    not so low, not so slow 2006 6 lug
    stockish
    fwiw, Ill sell anyone my ebay catch can for 25 bucks plus shipping.

    if u wanna throw a $25 part on ur engine, be my guest


    unless ur fine with all this crap being sent into your intake manifold (and this is N/A), with an ebay cheapy.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    Normal, maybe.......... but so is toyota claiming the auto trans is not needing to be serviced till 100K miles, then revised to 60K.......... its also normal to make the fuel filter unserviceable (without dropping a tank). Good, I doubt it...........normal procedure.... indeed.

    over active ABS, normal.........good, not in many cases.

    premature Thowout bearing failure, normal...............good, no

    selling a flawed rebadged K&N intake with a TRD logo normal, yes..............good, no

    having no servicable driveline on prerunners normal, yes........good, no

    using shocks that top out from the factory with a TSB pack normal, yes.........good, no


    giving the US 3 leaf packs for yrs and canada 4 leafs normal, yes.........good, no


    using an auto trans with no dipstick normal, yes........smart........no


    ill just stop there.

    offer stands for anyone that want to buy my $25 ebay special on your $30k truck.

    http://www.tacomaworld.com/forum/2nd-gen-tacomas/231227-oil-catch-can-install-guide.html

    ^^^^ catch can pics
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2013
  8. Jul 18, 2013 at 12:37 AM
    #28
    TACOMABOSS

    TACOMABOSS [OP] Well-Known Member

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    Interesting.
     
  9. Jul 18, 2013 at 5:36 AM
    #29
    BamaToy1997

    BamaToy1997 ASE Master Tech Vendor

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    Sounds like you don't like Toyota that much. ;) I will say this: Find another manufacturer of a mass produced vehicle, that is under $50k that DOESN'T have that many, if not more problems/complaints, then I will buy one. I've been in this industry for years and have learned that over time, every one of the manufacturers have vehicles with issues. EVERY one.

    As for the fuel filter being unserviceable, you will be hard pressed to find very many vehicles on the road today that HAVE a serviceable fuel filter. With todays tech, there is little need for more than the filter system on the inside of the tank, which is actually pretty good, and self cleaning.

    The other stuff, yeah, not everyone likes it all, but again, you will find just as many or more faults with every other vehicle on the road.
     
  10. Jul 18, 2013 at 6:52 AM
    #30
    tooter

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    Built for maximum low end torque, tooter II.VII intake manifold spacer, LCE long tube header, Injen long tube intake, 2,900 rpm torque peak.
    No one could ever be happy while holding the unreasonable entitlement to perfection in an imperfect world. In my opinion Toyota has done better than other vehicle manufacturers in making practical useful rugged reliable serviceable vehicles.

    I used my 1996 Tacoma daily as a money making work truck for 17 years and outside of the normal stuff, only replaced the front wheel bearings. And after 17 years, the first person who came to see it eagerly bought it for 40% of what I paid for it new. That is an astounding return on an investment.

    My 2012 has imperfections, but I gladly deal with them because they're minor compared to the blessing of being able to rely on it every day as a useful tool to make money. :)
     
  11. Jul 18, 2013 at 7:53 AM
    #31
    BradyT88

    BradyT88 Skinkwerks Rockware & Fabrication!!

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    Pretty sure Justus loves his Tacoma like the rest of us. I think he was just using examples we can relate too to help prove his point.
     
  12. Jul 18, 2013 at 8:10 AM
    #32
    BamaToy1997

    BamaToy1997 ASE Master Tech Vendor

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    I love my Tacoma also. Even with all the issues I have had to deal with on it. There was a thread somewhere that was started talking about durability and such. I think the Toyota truck lines was up in the top 5 or something like that. Don't get me wrong, they ARE a reliable truck.
     
  13. Jul 18, 2013 at 8:20 AM
    #33
    BlackSportD

    BlackSportD Well-Known Member

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    Justus is just making a good point that the statement "if the OEs are ok with it, it must be cool" does not carry a whole lot of weight at times. Working in the engineering field, and now around it, my hat is off to most all OEs as far as the amazing job they do with years of R&D, manufacturing processes, taking thousands of parts from hundreds of suppliers, assembly etc etc and deliver a working product at a price normal people can afford. Despite Murphy's Law plus oversights, plus leadership and bean counter pressure, some manufactures do a really good job, some not so great, all of which in todays information age allows that it is common knowledge who is good and bad at this thing. A little OT but I've been in the game a while now, including the business side and IMO Toyota has been loosing ground to the bean counters. I'm not nearly as inclined to buy a new Toyota/Lexus/Scion product as I would have been their older models. The TSBs my wifes Scion tC has had, then the IS250 compared to my Taco and IS300 are in totally different leagues of "oops, our bad". I can understand some changes made due to CAFE and that gets a write-off from me, but some are pure bean-counting or engineering oversights that are not acceptable.

    The pics are not loading for me except for the actual cup of oil, but that was some good catching with an ebay can. 90% of the ebay cans are simply empty cans with ports in them, there is NO internal baffling/filtering etc going on in their insides. In ebay's deffense, catch cans did not hit the scene with advanced seperation in mind, they were simply there to catch large globs of oil from vent to atomosphere systems to get on the road surface (track rules).

    My first catch can was given to me for free from a buddy. It was an ebay knock off of a Greddy I believe. Its insides were empty. I made some custom baffling and it did great. I still have it in the garage, I run the one I have now because the internal baffling is very impressive, and also its stealthy- the ebay one is big and blue- I'm not into that blind under my hood, everything looks stock even though I'm pushing 9.5lbs of boost with water/meth or E85.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2013
  14. Jul 18, 2013 at 8:31 AM
    #34
    tooter

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    I think that this small detail went unnoticed...

    Notice how squeaky clean the area behind the injectors is? Gasoline and oil are both hydrocarbons and become reunited at the point where the injectors are spraying. That's exactly the location where cleanliness really matters... the valves. Gasoline being a distillate of oil is the perfect solvent for oil, because it is oil. :)

    [​IMG]
     
  15. Jul 18, 2013 at 10:26 AM
    #35
    Torspd

    Torspd Tor-nication

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    It isn't about the fact that he doesn't like his Toyota. Just like the other guys said.

    It is about seeing past the what the "bean counters", as BlackSportD mentioned, have implemented, and knowing the truths and sharing the truths. That way we are all better informed about what we have, and can make educated decisions on how to improve such things if we so choose.

    Here is another vehicle that comes stock with one.

    Quoted from TurboHilux in my build thread, "Guys attached is Pic of the Hilux Fuel filter and photo of my turbo manifold installed to put it in perspective.

    Link for fuel filter part number and details

    http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/NEW-GENUI...item3a81c4c370 "

    [​IMG]

    Found here, http://www.tacomaworld.com/forum/2nd-gen-builds/203482-torspd-nevr-60.html



    Ever go to a gas station and see the pictures of dirty valves above the pumps?

    That happens due to the oil vapor from the PCV system. Secondly, it happens over a long period of time. So over a long period of time, continual usage of a catch-can will aid in preventing that build up. That same build up which, again over a length of time, will build up on the crowns of your pistons, your piston rings, in your exhaust, and let's not forget - into the cats.

    Here is an example:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Kind of hard to tell, but on the rings and ring lands. After 30K miles.

    [​IMG]

    That build up over a long time can decrease power due to valves not sealing completely, and causing a loss of compression. Rings not being able to seal as good as they once could due to being gunked up and stuck.

    Cats can have a slightly lower life due to being clogged with burnt oil, and either completely clog, or become a strong restriction. Actually happened most recently with my Subi. All better now though. ;)

    Do catch-cans help? Yes. Do they work the exact same in every environment? No. Sconnie Haler described that.

    Will your engine love you more? No. But if it could.

    Will not having one and just having the normal blow by go into your engine be ok? Yes

    But if you pride in your vehicle/investment, why not do things to make it last longer and perform better? Even if the ultimate goal is to have a regular vehicle.

    Do race car teams use catch cans? Yes, and that is a good enough reason for me. Although, I do know more than just that.

    My question, for this specific vehicle, is where do you get more blow by from? The piston rings, or the PCV system? That ties into an indirect reason why catch cans are good as well.

    Side topic, Newer U.S. Toyotas are lacking some of the stronger/durable, and common sense parts that their foreign market counterparts have. Unfortunate, but true. :(
     
  16. Jul 18, 2013 at 10:54 AM
    #36
    T@co_Pr3runn3r

    T@co_Pr3runn3r XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

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    Excellent post! Trying to excuse away these facts and the premise behind them is just unrealistic and supportive of a negative downward spiral of quality. Sure thing, let's strive to be the least shitty because actually being the best is too expensive and out of step with others.......hilarious concept.
     
  17. Jul 18, 2013 at 11:05 AM
    #37
    Torspd

    Torspd Tor-nication

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    I have a strong feeling that there is an actual corporate term for that.... No lol.

    Speaking of the TOB....I was driving a manual '85 not to long ago. Few hundred thousand miles. TOB still didn't squeal like those do in the AY6 after 20k.....
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2013
  18. Jul 18, 2013 at 12:36 PM
    #38
    BamaToy1997

    BamaToy1997 ASE Master Tech Vendor

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    I get what you mean about build up, and the risks of such things. I don't have a catch can or anything like that, but I also do not have any build up on my valves or pistons. I used a good fuel additive periodically and pistons/rings/valves are all nice and clean. I can also see the purpose in some situations to want a catch can, especially on the engines with direct injection, where the fuel system is not able to help "clean" anything.

    On the other conversation, I was not trying to say anything bad about what the other person was saying. I was just offering up my opinions as well. After the years of dealership experience and working with field engineers and other instructors, I agree that there is a lot of bean counting attitude that unfortunately causes quality to suffer. If my comments came off as anything more, then I apologize. I try not to ruffle feathers. lol.
     
  19. Jul 18, 2013 at 2:56 PM
    #39
    SconnieHailer

    SconnieHailer PutterClutch

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    Referring to techron additive bill?
     
  20. Jul 18, 2013 at 4:07 PM
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    scocar

    scocar being weird again....still

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    So how about the vaporized oil and water vapor/condensation/other blow-by gases being added to the A/F mixture downstream of the MAF (PCV vents to my TB immediately after the butterfly) reducing efficient (and optimal) combustion? Basically, it fouls the A/F mixture before it enters the manifold. The only place the ECU could even make an adjustment, I suppose, and just speculating here, is atthe O2 sensors, but thatis only measuring combusiton byproducts, not A/F. It seems like it could have a not insignificant affect on overall performance, or at least efficiency.

    I'm not a mechanical engineer, but I do play with myself. I mean play one on TV.
     
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